Wednesday, 7 March 2018

Questing in Elfgames IV - Adventuring in the Ship of Theseus (very long post)

This is a step away from determining backgrounds. Still about procedures for epic questing and more closely gaming the tales we read, though.

I've mentioned the Ship of Theseus before. I first heard of it as 'the Grandfather's Axe Problem' and in the UK now is often known as 'Trigger's Broom'.

The idea is simple. You replace all the timbers and rigging of a ship. When is it not the same ship? When you replace the handle and head of an axe, does it stop being the same axe? When Trigger has replaced the handle and bristles of his broom several times, is it the same broom?

A similar thing can happen to bands. Napalm Death, Christian Death and Dr Feelgood, for example, somewhat famously continued even though there were no original members left. A party is like that sometimes. Members come and go, either because of player drop-outs or PC death (even without going into TPKs). After a while a party may have little or no resemblance to the original membership.

So, in this instance, is it the same party? And, yes or no, is it possible for an ever-changing constellation of characters to have a 'quest'?

As a thought-experiment going back to the Lord of the Rings...

Session 1 - The Shire (Hobbiton to Crickhollow):

Three players - Alan (Frodo), Barbara (Sam) and Charles (Pippin) decide they want to run 'Ring-Quest': the DM tells Frodo's player that his uncle gave him a magic ring before disappearing into the Wild, and Frodo is going to find out what happened to him. If the Hobbits had (for example) lost Pippin to a Tiger Beetle attack in Woody End (I once rolled up encounters for the Fellowship as per the Mentzer wilderness rules and this happened on the first night, as described in the reply to this post in 3d6, Traps & Thieves), they could then have been joined by Gildor (Charles thought he'd play an Elf next session).

(This part has been edited to make it more true as well as functional.)

Session 2 - The Old Forest (Crickhollow to Tom's House):

Frodo, Sam and Gildor are joined by Deirdre playing Merry, but Merry is killed in the Old Forest. The rest of the party makes it safely to Tom's House, and Deirdre rolls up a Magic User, Goldberry, who will join the next leg of the journey.

Session 3 - The Barrow Downs (Tom's House to Bree):

The party departs from Tom's House. They get involved in a dungeon-delve, but Barbara's character Sam is killed by the Barrow-wights. Barbara rolls up a Ranger for her next character (maybe in Basic D&D terms this is a Cleric, but Barbara says she really thinks he should have a sword. The DM agrees, as long as it's broken and can't be fixed until Rivendell) as the party continues on to Bree.

Session 4 - Midgewater (Bree to Weathertop):

By the time they are leaving Bree the party is Frodo (still Alan's first PC and still the Ringbearer), Strider (Barbara's second PC), Gildor (Charles's second PC) and Goldberry (Deirdre's second PC). The quest continues on to Weathertop, where there is a big fight with the Nazgul and Frodo is injured (Strider the Cleric can only use a torch as a weapon).

Session 5 - the Trollshaws (Weathertop to Rivendell):

Another player, Erik, joins them for this session, with Glorfindel as his PC (an Elf scouting from Rivendell), and the quest continues to head in that direction. Again there is a confrontation with the Nazgul but the party makes it to Rivendell. At Rivendell after 5 sessions, Frodo's player Alan decides to jack it in. Frodo, it is decided, will stay in Rivendell healing from his wound. The DM tells Alan that Frodo's uncle is there, and the two Hobbits, in game terms at least, retire to study Elvish poetry. By now there are no Hobbits in the party. The PCs have completely changed from the group that left Hobbiton and entered the Old Forest. Strider (replaced Sam as Barbara's PC), Gildor (replaced Pippin as Charles's PC) and Goldberry (replaced Merry as Deirdre's PC), with Glorfindel (Erik's PC) however, still constitute a party. Alan agrees Frodo will hand over the Ring to Goldberry.

Session 6 - Moria (Rivendell to Lorien):

This session starts with a Ring-Quest party forming with Goldberry, Gildor, Strider, Glorfindel, Gloin (played by Faith), Gimli (played by Gary) and Boromir (played by Helen). Oh and an NPC Gandalf. Faith and Gary aren't really sure they're going to be able to stick around, but they've come along for a session anyway. Now apart from the fact that only Strider and Boromir have names that don't begin with 'G', that seems like a viable party, though maybe Gloin at 235 (40 years older than Thorin at the time of The Hobbit) is a bit old to be going adventuring. The party leaves Rivendell and travels towards Moria. Fights with the Watcher in the Water, a bit of riddling to find the secret door, and some fights in the tunnels with Orcs lead to a confrontation on the bridge where Glorfindel (Erik's PC) falls fighting the Balrog. The two Dwarven players decide they won't be coming back and drop out of the campaign. They decide that their characters are going to continue to fight in Moria against the Orc Hordes, trying to re-take it for the House of Durin; the rest of the party 'knows' they're still alive (in game terms) somewhere in Khazad Dum. Erik really wants to keep playing even though Glorfindel is dead, and likes Elves, so when the party rests up in Lorien, Haldir joins the party. However, Gildor's player Charles (who played Pippin originally) also drops out of the campaign and Gildor 'stays in Lorien', mourning the death of his friend Glorfindel.

Session 7 - Anduin I (Lorien to Amon Hen):

By this point eight players have been involved. Two of the three players from the first session have dropped out (Alan and Charles AKA Frodo and Pippin/Gildor). But the quest continues. Deirdre is keeping the quest alive with her character Goldberry acting as the Ringbearer. The party heads south - with Goldberry, Strider, Haldir and Boromir (with NPC Gandalf of course). The party reaches Amon Hen, where they are ambushed by Orcs. Goldberry is killed. The rest of the party send her body over the Falls of Rauros in an Elven boat. Before she dies she gives the Ring to Strider. He, Boromir and Haldir vow to continue.

Session 8 - Anduin II (Amon Hen to Cair Andros):

About to depart from Amon Hen, the PCs meet a Rohirric commander, Eomer (the PC of Iain, a new player), who is in the area on patrol. He joins the party. They journey downriver towards a Gondorian garrison near Cair Andros: on the way, they raid an Orcish stronghold in a cave-system near a Gondorian fort. Here, Strider is killed fighting a giant horned troll, but he impresses on Eomer the importance of the quest, and he takes the Ring. There's a whole bunch of caves here, enough for several sessions adventuring from this Gondorian keep on the borderlands if the party wishes, but having scouted the caves the party continues south.

Session 9 - Ithilien (Cair Andros to Osgiliath):

At Cair Andros, the party is joined by a new PC. Charles has decided that he wants to give the campaign another go so he rolls up a new character - a Thief, who he decides is a Gondorian soldier called Beregond. The DM decides that Beregond's commanding officer has sent him with the party as a guide to the next garrison, at Osgiliath. The PCs make their way to the ruined city and fight Orcs and Nazgul on the way.

Session 10 - Morgul Vale (Osgiliath to Minas Morgul):

At Osgiliath, two more PCs join the quest. These are Ioreth, a Cleric run by Deirdre, who re-joins the campaign, and Eowyn, a fighter, run by Jeanette, a new player. Ioreth is a healer attached to the Osgiliath garrison. The DM rules that a force from Rohan has arrived to bolster the Gondorian forces, which has included Eowyn disguised as a man. They join Eomer, Boromir, Haldir and Beregond in an journey to the fortress of Minas Morgul, where a Gondorian army is encamped in Morgul Vale. On the way they are ambushed by Southrons coming to break the siege, and nearly caught by the Witch-King's magic - but Eowyn eventually kills the Witch-King with a little help from Haldir. However, both Haldir and Eomer are killed; with his dying breath Eomer gives the Ring to Boromir.

Session 11 - Cirith Ungol (environs of Minas Morgul):

Not yet tiring of the shenanigans in Morgul Vale, the party decides at the next session to go on a little side-quest up into the hills. Erik, now that Haldir is dead, rolls up another Elf (he really likes Elves) called Imrahil. The DM says that there really aren't any Elves in the Gondorian army, but Eriks says "can he be a sort of Half-Elf... using the rules for an Elf?" Oh, all right says the DM. However Charles (the only original player, who had actually dropped out of the campaign for a bit) can't make this session. The DM rules that Beregond is busy with his military duties - in game terms, he is spending the day reporting to the commanders of the Gondorian army about the Mordorian forces to the north and the state of the defences. Nevertheless, Boromir, Eowyn, Iorweth and Imrahil go off into the hills above the Morgul Vale. There they meet a giant spider and some Orcs, and have some fun dungeon-bashing, before coming back to camp.

Session 12 - Gorgoroth (Minas Morgul to Orodruin):

Charles unfortunately can't make this session either (so Beregond is still busy doing stuff for the army, probably scouting). Boromir the Ringbearer, Eowyn, Ioreth and Imrahil head off across Gorgoroth to take the Ring to Mt Doom. They have some trouble with Orc patrols and have to evade Nazgul but eventually they get there. Boromir makes a speech remembering all the brave souls who have helped them and casts the Ring into the fire. Then the PCs are racing a volcano to get the hell out of there! Frankly at this point even if the PCs do snuff it they've already saved the world so they can congratulate themselves on a heroic sacrifice well-done. Haldir and Eowyn both fail their Save v Dragon Breath to avoid the fumes. Boromir and Ioreth decide they'll carry their unconscious brethren so the DM makes them take another Save - they both make it and the DM rules that they narrowly get their companions out of the danger zone. There's little point in role-playing the journey back so the DM concludes that at last, weary and dehydrated, they stagger into a Gondorian patrol who are amazed that they had not perished. Returning to a jubilant camp, they are told that a heroes' welcome awaits them in Minas Tirith.


12 sessions. 10 players. 17 PCs (and Gandalf as an NPC). In that time the party fulfilled the point of 'Ring-Quest' and had a bunch of exciting adventures. None of the original PCs, or even players, finish the campaign. In a few places, the DM had interpret the actions of players that had an effect on characters (such as Beregond being absent). It's not quite as polished as Lord of the Rings but it's not bad I don't think. It's closer to 'heroic fantasy' than most D&D games I've played.

I've been trying to find a format for a travelling 'quest'-style game where the party is always changing. Even typing this out has made me realise something. Back in the old days when most of the 'scenarios' I read came from White Dwarf, there was a clich├ęd opening that was 'travelling all day you at last come to a village at sunset. As you make your way to the inn...'. Sometimes it was just 'Finding yourself in an inn...'. I used to wonder why. I've realised that 'the inn' in which the party finds itself is (spiritually) 'The Prancing Pony'. The things happening in the scenario weren't the 'quest': they were incidents along the way. They were the Barrow-wights' tombs. They were the diversions to Cirith Ungol. The 'quest' was the reason the party was always travelling. The way to get an episodic 'quest' with a changing party is to end each session (as the Rift City campaign ends) back at safety, at the next Inn, at the Keep, at the army camp, at the Homely House. There the PCs can rest and personnel can be swapped.

Every session needs to be like this - and the PCs either return to where they started to try again tomorrow, or go to the next point down the line. Bag End - Crickhollow - Tom's House - Bree - Weathertop Camp - Rivendell - Lorien - Amon Hen - Cair Andros - Osgiliath - Minas Morgul - Minas Morgul again: then Orodruin for a big climax. That's a fair campaign and allows plenty of opportunity for replacement PCs or new players to integrate themselves into the action.

The rules seem simple. If a PC is left behind, they're left behind, and they need a reason to do so, which means the DM needs to tell a story why. If the player comes back later, they need a new PC. If the quest has some McGuffin, the Guardian of the McGuffin must be appointed and successors designated as needed. Beyond that it just (just!) requires some flexibility by the DM. Parties can stay in one place (more adventures around Minas Morgul) or move on (in the example above the PCs barely glimpsed the Caves of Chaos before heading to Osgiliath). But whichever way, there must always be the possibility of integrating new PCs at the beginning of every session.

'Points of Light' + Nodes = 'Nodes of Light'. Cool. That might work.


  1. Okay, here's a crazy idea (something I wanted to blog about at some point, forgot about, and remembered while reading this post ... so this is the first time I've voiced this, maybe not the last): Have Player Experience Points instead of Character Experience Points. Player joins the game, but missed three sessions before, his character sheet indicates he's a level 3 player, which means his character may have characteristics according to it (a level 3 character in the game, right?). o you get characters as the story would need it right now and the players gain experience, but don't lose anything when missing a couple of games! High level players might have semi-npcs as patrons for their lower level characters (so, going with Tolkien here, Bilbo's PLayer might have a high level with Gandalf as the patron and Bilbo as the new level 1 character (because at a certain level, the semi-npc is the boon, right?). Maybe that could be something like a Rank 1, Level 1 player character (rank = the number of Patrons (maybe stable, even?) and level is for the current patch of characters?). I know, somewhat crazy ... might blog about it with more detail nonetheless :)

    Regarding your post: I was wondering in how far the prepared sets qualify as a railroad or how players will keep "agency" with changing characters. Excessive meta-gaming (which is possible, if you keep the players engaged about the story, I guess)?

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  3. Oh, too many typos in the last comment were annoying me.

    Thanks for the comment.

    Giving players levels is certainly an interesting idea. All the PCs in my current campaign are L1 and going to stay there for a while yet. And I think all of the characters in my retelling of 'Lord of the Rings' are likely to have stayed at L1 (the longest run of any PC I think is sessions 5-12 for Boromir). But conceptually at least there is a point in a long-running campaign where PCs can't start at L1. Perhaps it can be done in 'quantum jumps' - once the majority of PCs are L4, newbies start at L3 with 5d6x10 GP instead of 3d6x10 GP (so they can get better armour and a silver dagger). Then when the majority is on 8th Level newbies start at L6, and so on.

    I like the idea of the stable of patrons. Maybe the easiest thing is to just treat this a function of level - if you start a new PC at Level 3 you get 3 patrons (or maybe it should be Level-1). Whether all this can be linked to 'player level' is a bit more complicated. Unless that metric is just 'how many sessions have you played in this campaign' it's going to be hard to assign a score, and even then perhaps more book-keeping than I want to be bothered with!

    Not sure I understand the last point; but the PCs need to agree to the quest. I don't see that as a railroad. The PCs have a goal - how to get there is up to the players.

    One problem that may occur, related to the 'Quantum Ogre', is the invention of the 'Quantum Tavern'. Every path the that the PCs take in the last 10 minutes of the game leads to somewhere safe where potential new players can be found. It doesn't have to be a tavern, it could be a Lord's hall or a monastery or maybe the PCs camp in the wilderness but next morning meet some scouts or passing Dwarven traders - but someone asks to join the party.

    1. Sorry, busy week here as well :) regarding my last question: your set-up reminds me a bit of what those board game/rpg-hybrids do, in that each session offers a frame/board in which the characters move. Maybe I just didn't understand in how all the chapters are driven by player/character decisions (since it follows the Lord of the Rings story line and all). The "Quantum Tavern" is a neat idea and actually a good concept to connect the players with the narrative any given moment. Any why shouldn't there be a safe haven close by? It's a legit assumption.

  4. Well, the thought-experiment 'Ring-Quest' campaign I describe does follow LotR at least until the Breaking of the Fellowship . After Rauros it departs. Mostly I kept to the same route because it's all the right direction - but if they'd gone by the High Pass from Rivendell, maybe they'd have met up with the Beornings before or instead of the Elves of Lorien. If they went south past Moria maybe they'd have met more-or-less friendly Dunlendings or Rohirrim scouts or some of the wandering Hobbits of Eriador or an enclave of Elves or some traders near Tharbad or...

    But I don't think I'm doing particular violence to what Tolkien describes to say, in effect, every couple of days there's a new opportunity for people to leave or join the quest. So no Rohirrim were near the Falls of Rauros when the questors departed... big deal: they could have been! If Eomer's player had wanted to join in, there's a way to make it happen. Likewise, the specifics of the garrisons of North Ithilien are not given but if the quest had gone that way and some Gondorian soldier was getting in on the action, why not? Scouts and guides from the local army camp or from Faramir's Rangers could have joined the quest. Elves, Dwarves and more Halflings would require a bit more effort to get in on the act but the DM could rule that Galadriel or Dain Ironfoot or whoever had sent out an embassy to Gondor (much as Jackson had the Elves arrive at Helm's Deep... or Tolkien had Elladan, Elrohir and Halbarad etc turn up after it). As Halflings lived around the middle Anduin in Smaegol's time, maybe there are still a few Hobbits east of the mountains - if necessary.

    Even a camp in the wilderness could be an opportunity - as Glorfindel shows. In game terms, the justification is 'you meet an Elven scout who says he's looking for you'. As long as the narrative isn't so closed-off that it's impossible to meet someone friendly, then I think this idea might work.

    It's still only a formula for a specific problem, though - how to have a changing party (such as with an open table) but with a continuing quest. I don't see it as a universal panacea!